Transcript
Dave Bricker (00:07)
Want to expand your speaking and storytelling skills and grow your influence business? This is Speakipedia Media brought to you by speakipedia .com. Iām your host, Dave Bricker, bringing you straight talk and smart strategies from visionary speakers, thought leaders, and storytellers. My guest is an award -winning storyteller, comedian, and funny motivational speaker. She served as the keynote speaker for the International Toastmasters Convention, along with numerous conferences and corporate events. She just launched her one -woman show, Who Hijacked My Fairy Tale, in theaters all over the country. And she elevates leaders, entrepreneurs, professionals, and speakers to that magical place where the art of story meets the business of persuasion. Please welcome National Speakers Association Hall of Fame presenter, Kelly Swanson.
Kelly Swanson (01:03)
Wow, thank you Dave. That was a build up right there. Wish you could follow me everywhere. Nice to be here! you.
Dave Bricker (01:05)
Iām sorry. Well, yeah, the hard part about a strong intro is we have to live up to it, right? But I donāt think thatās going to be an issue. So, canātā¦
Kelly Swanson (01:16)
Well, hopefully people here are listening more than theyāre listening in my audiences when it comes to your time. I do too.
Dave Bricker (01:24)
I doubt that. But Kelly, this is going to be fun because I get to take a break from talking about the power of storytelling and let you do it. So tell us whatās so powerful about stories?
Kelly Swanson (01:41)
Well, Iām hoping we can have a conversation. You wonāt leave it all up to me because you have wonderful nuggets of wisdom. But thatās a loaded question too, as you know, why stories matter. I mean, I could go on for days about all the different ways. Let meā¦ Stories give our message meaning. I believe stories give life meaning. But stories are compelling and entertaining.
They say our attention span is that of a gnat or like four seconds. But Dave, they can, you know, theyāll say we donāt have enough attention span for a meeting and yet weāll go on Netflix and watch four hours of A Guy with a Mullet and a Tiger. You and I both know that when somebody is suspended in a story, you can keep them there for a long time, much longer than data anyway. A couple more things though, I could go more. Story gives context and story can explain things when you speak a different language from your buyer like financial planners or doctors or if you have industry speak thatās confusing a story can be used to paint a picture in an analogy or in a story they can understand that can then be related to what youāre talking about. Story connects emotionally. It allows them to like trust, believe you, feel like they know you because when weāre, I believe weāre all in the business of sales and the first thing you have to do, people arenāt gonna buy from you or believe what you have to say or whatever, unless they like you. And story shows us who you are without you having to tell us. Those are a few of, I think of the most important ways that would you concur that those are kind of the top?
Dave Bricker (03:24)
I would expand on that just a little bit because youāre talking if you go up to somebody that you care about and you say, let me tell you what your problem is. They shut down. They donāt listen. They canāt process it. And if you say, let me tell you a story, all of a sudden youāve got a back door and they are processing that with a different part of their brain and theyāre going to listen.
Because even though the story is about them indirectly, itās not about them. And you talk about people buying, and thatās not necessarily people giving you money. Thatās people buying your ideas, buying your credibility, buying your authority, buying your authenticity. And so I like that you jumped right into this idea of weāre all in the business of sales.
Kelly Swanson (04:18)
And youāre right too, when you tell people what to do or give them advice, that has a pushing action. When you tell a story, I mean, they climb right on in. People love to hear it. Itās a non -threatening way to give them advice or present a problem or show that you understand where theyāre coming from. I mean, there are just many uses for it.
Dave Bricker (04:40)
Yeah, itās, I donāt have to tell you how powerful it is. Itās certainly been my playground for many years. And look, speaking of stories, we all have one. And there was a time back in elementary school where the teacher said, what do you want to do when you grow up? And somebody said, fireman, doctor, nurse, nobody said accountant, but nobody said storyteller either. So how did you fall into this line of work?
Kelly Swanson (05:11)
They didnāt say speaker, either. I always tell people, thatās the job you do when you fail at everything else and you become a motivational speaker. Not really. Well, and what I think is interesting that I havenāt begun to explore until recently over the past couple of years is when I look back on my life, Dave, I was shy as the day is long. If you turned it, looked at me, I was beet red. I was picked on, I was bullied.
The world was toxic to me and I was afraid and so what did I do? And I donāt even know if you know this part of the story I escaped into make -believe I created an imaginary town and all these characters and I can look back now and go Oh my god, look what you were doing. You were escaping You were finding joy by writing a different story to live in and it brought you comfort and I thought oh my gosh, how interesting that now I talk aboutāthat I donāt just talk about story to influence, which weāll probably talk a lot about on our call today, but that the story you write becomes the life that you live and the ability and the power we have to change our story. Iām starting to believe that reality is just data and we all look at one thing happening and we all walk away and we write a different story and life is the story we write with the data thatās been put in front of us. And that is powerful. Anyway, Iām derailing, but thatās,
Now that I realize it, my journey with stories started way before and the characters became my art. So they stumbled out onto paper. So I would write these stories of these ordinary people who made me laugh and made me feel things and who did extraordinary things in a very ordinary way. And it just so happened that somebody heard me tell a story one day and said, you should come tell our schools. Next thing you know, Iām telling it for schools. I was like, oh, donāt like this. You know, and I like telling it for the adults in the room.
And it turned into being a storyteller and then a speaker and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I come by it honest. I mean, I lived in the world of make believe. And Iād like to tell people, I like this wording, I re -imagined my life. And I like to tell people that they can re -imagine their own lives by changing the story, but as influencers or people of impact or however youāre trying to persuade people in your own work.
We have the ability to help other people reimagine their lives. And when weāre selling, thatās kind of what weāre doing. I know thatās deep, but I was like, weāre helping them reimagine, weāre painting a picture of what their life will look like with our product. Or as a leader, weāre painting a picture of this vision we have that we can all buy into and we can all step into it and test drive that truth. Itās cool, itās cool. Anyway, so thereās, thatās my long -winded answer to how story came into my world.
Dave Bricker (07:56)
Thatās all right. Youāre here to be as long winded as you want. Iāll give you a hard time if I need to, but I doubt that I will. I have to interject there that I didnāt disappear to make believe, but I was the same way. I was a really shy kid. And what I found is I could get people to stop picking on me when I drew pictures. So and I was, if you look on my Facebook page and you go through my galleries, thereās the Lost High School Sketchbook.
And you can see all the wacky drawings, little puns like a heart attack and little crazy cartoons. I was always drawing when I was a kid. And thatās where people would gather around and watch instead of gather around and give me a hard time. Because I was that weird kid who liked to read and didnāt care or understand what other people cared about. I donāt know who won the football game. I donāt care. Itās justā¦ different directions. So I totally get where youāre coming from. And I think so many people think, well, youāre a professional speaker. You must be big time type A. No, no, Iāve just compensated. So.
Kelly Swanson (09:11)
Right. Yeah, Iām an incredible introvert. Getting on a stage is really, it takes a lot out of me. But itās worth it.
Dave Bricker (09:20)
Yeah, exactly. I think thatās, I think many of our listeners will appreciate that too, because thereās this idea that you have to have this big bold personality and like, no, you donāt; you can fake it.
Kelly Swanson (09:33)
When you end up and you go see the big speakers or these ones who make the big fees and you watch them and youāre like, oh, well, I mean, theyāre just talking. Youāre like, well, I thought there was more to it than that. And we build this idea that they must be doingāno, weāre all just talking. Weāre all just having a conversation, hopefully an elevated conversation with our audience. And it is so cool as speakers.
And that is why story matters so much, because we get to take that audience on a journey and help them reimagine their own lives and think differently. And your content canāt do that. I really believe itās the story that turns it into an experience.
Dave Bricker (10:15)
Right. And we were all born not knowing how to say a word. And here we are. So thereās that journey through storytelling. So, Kelly, weāve both made this journey into storytelling. And then we brought that into the business world of all places. And you might break it down differently, but I like to think in terms of what I call the three circles of storytelling. What to say, how to say it, and why theyāll buy it. Andā¦
Kelly Swanson (10:21)
Here we are, right?
Dave Bricker (10:43)
You might approach it differently and you can challenge that if you want, but letās talk about that first one, the what to say. So before you deliver a story, you have to create it. And people struggle with writing the story. And what are some of the challenges people come to you with and what advice do you have to offer?
Kelly Swanson (11:05)
Well, I realized recently as weāve had our NSA story contest and weāre all entrenched in everybody sharing their stories, I am blown away at how many people are muddy on what actually a story is. I was going way ahead of everybody not realizing that I need to back up a little bit and talk about what a story is. Itās not a list of facts. Thatās not a story.
It doesnāt mean it doesnāt have a place in your speech or there can be an anecdote and there can be comedy bits. But letās first at least get on the same page of what is a story? And youāre right, you have to put it together, think about it, plan it, craft it. Now Iāve already forgotten your question, but a story is when something happenedāsomething happened and there was a before to it and an after to it. And thereās a character in it. And I had somebody say, āWhat do you mean by character?ā So this dog is the character of my story. Iām like, no, the person is the character unless itās a talking dog and probably not in speaking, but the character is the story. And theyāre like, well, what about hero? And Iām like, well, forget, donāt worry about it. Youāre not, donāt have to, theyāre like, I canāt be a hero. Iām like, youāre not Batman, that kind of hero, but the heroās taking a journey. I donāt want to get too much into heroās journey because I simplify it. But itās just.
Dave Bricker (12:27)
I do too. Itās great for epic films. You want to write the new Star Wars, Wizard of Oz, classic heroās journey. You want to write a speech, start shaving blocks off of that.
Kelly Swanson (12:39)
Right, right. So, yeah, a story needs to be constructed properly. It needs to finish. There are so many times Iām like, whoa, you stopped at the accident and Iād like the art of the story to be completed from the conflict to the resolution to the victory. You know, thatās at its core what a story is. Now, thereās also what it does.
And again, you and I use different ways to get to the same thing, but itās a tool, because Iām not teaching story to people who want a theater show. Iām teaching story to people who need to use it to go change behavior. So itās, well, what do you want to do with it? Do you know? Why are you using this story? What do you want them to think, feel, or do? Why are you using this story, and whatās the lesson there? And I know youāve seen that too. A lot of stories, when I say at the end, well, whatās the point if thereās a hesitation
It means youāre not sure or you didnāt verbalize it. Anyway, Iām blathering. Iām not sure. I already forgot the question.
Dave Bricker (13:41)
Well, it was about people who struggle to write stories and it sounds like weāre in the same place on that too because I always say start with the transformation. If you donāt know how you want your reader, your audience, your listener to think, feel, or act different, then youāre not really ready to write the story. You donāt have aā¦ Itās like going to the airport and saying, gee, where do I want to fly?
Kelly Swanson (14:06)
Right. And if you donāt know the lesson in it, then why are you telling? Donāt tell it until you already, and thatās, do that on the front end. I used to say, I donāt say it as much, I still should, can you tell me your story in one sentence? And I donāt mean the whole plot. I mean, can you in one sentence clearly say, this was about the time I lost my job, felt defeated, found a new joy in life, learned that opportunity is around every corner I mean, around every corner. Itās a long sentence, but having that control, and Dave, part of the problem is when we were growing up, at least where I was in school, well, I think being a storytelling coach, our schools have done an egregious job teaching us how to write for starters, but we were just taught, get out a piece of paper, write.
Tell us about what you did this summer and we just start to write. Many of us are not used to planning it. I spend way more time planning my story than I do actually want writing it.
Dave Bricker (15:06)
Yeah, and itās interesting because I have authors who come to me and theyāll say, hereās my 300,000 word manuscript. And Iāll say, hereās whatās happened. You love to get up at five every morning and sit in front of the keyboard and hold the pen for God. And you love watching this stuff appear on the screen. And the problem is the Lord works in mysterious ways. And all of this flow writing. So if you start with that transformation, you can map it out. Okay, what are the steps to get to that transformation? Oh, letās put an intro on the front of it. And then you can flow into an outline. And so many writers are afraid that theyāre gonna lose that authenticity, that connection to the divine if they impose that structure. And I donāt think thatās true at all.
Kelly Swanson (16:02)
I agree and they just werenāt taught a better way and then you have thatās what you end up with a wall of words and another thing that happens then people wonder why their speech is so hard to memorize so hard to tell so hard to bubba bubba bubba the story so hard because it was just a wall of words without a clear structure and scenes to it and blocking and also because you didnāt write it the way you talk.
I think another thing we do with that wall of words when weāre sitting down to write a speech or write a story, I think we put on a set of eyes, I still do it sometimes, where when weāre typing or writing, weāre writing it as if it were to be read. And that doesnāt translate to conversation and storytelling. I remember when I switched my process and I began writing and practicing at the same time.
So I would write it, practice how I would say it, and I would write it in a conversational way. Sometimes I wouldnāt even finish sentences. And thatās a big, big shift from vomiting a wall of pages and pages of words and then trying to cut it. It was like writing condensed and conversationally. Now, unfortunately, a lot of that stuff canāt be turned into something that could easily be read. But thatās the difference, I think, in writing and being a storyteller and a speaker is our speeches are conversations we have with our audience. They may not talk back, but so Iām constantly, how can I mess my language up enough to feel authentic, but also have beautiful language in there? Thatās where I have to work at it.
Dave Bricker (17:42)
Yeah. And, and I like that. What, what, I mean, everyoneās process is different. If Iāve got a speech of a certain duration to do, I usually outline it and then I write it out, but thatās mostly so I can get the word count right. So I can know figure 120 words a minute. That gives me time to pause, play, let the audience react, whatever. And then, okay, Iām a thousand words over. Iāve got to cut some stuff out.
Once Iāve got that, then I go back to the outline and I rehearse from the outline and I just like, this is my material, I know it. Because, and this taps right into my next question because look, once you write the story, you have to deliver it. And so many speakers create a script and they think, okay, Iām gonna memorize my speech and read it out of my head to the audience. And it doesnāt work.
I mean, the time you spend memorizing a five -minute speech and really internalizing it, thatās a big deal. So once that story is crafted, how can our listeners make that transition from lecturer to speaker? Talk about that role of strong delivery, that how to say it component of effective storytelling.
Kelly Swanson (19:00)
Well, I have to first say you need to write it in a way thatās easy to say and that sounds conversational. Thatās critical because, you know, thatās just every good speech is half script, half delivery, even if you donāt script and memorize. Okay, but to delivery tips, here are some basics that come to mind from videos Iāve been watching recently for the contest. Donāt deliver lines to the side. Deliver lines to the audience.
So even if your character and your story is over there or youāre walking that way, donāt talk to the side of the stage. You need to figure out and practice how to do it so that youāre always delivering your lines to us because weāre in the conversation. Thatās one key. I always say donāt drop the dog. Sometimes what this means is when youāre in a scene and thereās a dog in it and youāre carrying the dog in the scene, but a minute later you say something and you move your arm, youāve dropped the dog. So try to stay in your scene. And I donāt want anybody listening, I donāt want you to become something youāre not. I donāt want you to act in authentically. I used to say donāt become an actor, and then actors would say, well, thatās not fair, because weāre not doing that either. Weāre reacting in a realistic way. So I was like, okay, whatever the word is, use the space, be inside the story. Thatās the difference in what you said a minute ago from the people who act like theyāre reciting it, telling it from a safe distance. Theyāll ask me, how do you tell a woman with a mop? Youāve told it a million times and yet every time it feels real. I said because every time Iām standing in there looking around and Iām telling you what I see and Iām seeing it again for you, Iām realizing it again in the moment, Iām fully present there and the script never changes. So, so I can still stick to that same script. So stay in there. Itās like youāve got virtual reality glasses. And again, some of this comes in the writing too. If I canāt see it, I canāt connect with it. So just something, you know, a nugget of a poster on a wall or a, you know, the, the, let me see some of those characters in your story, just a little bit. We donāt need a lot, but you asked about delivery. Iā¦
Hereās one trick I do is I try to unpolish myself, lean, you know, talk to the audience, interrupt myself with a comment to somebody sitting there. Those are ways you can make it feel like an organic conversation. I will also, even though I know the next word Iām going to say, Iāll stop and think about it. You see, because it, it, so that I donāt appear robotic, even though I know full well what I was about to say. Thatās a little trick that I do. Okay, thatās probably enough delivery, delivery tips that I can give you. Iām sure I left some things out, but. Alright.
Dave Bricker (21:48)
Mm -hmm. Well, I know we could both go on forever with that, but itās fun stuff and itās good advice. Now, we were both music majors in our former lives. You studied classical piano, I studied jazz guitar, and letās just say at that time we werenāt looking ahead to careers as professional speakers and storytellers. And then I spent some years as a sailboat bum after that.
Kelly Swanson (22:06)
Yeah.
Dave Bricker (22:25)
I donāt think either of us leaped off the corporate ladder into the world of speaking. And I mean, sometimes speakers tell me, oh, I worked as a Fortune 500 CEO for so many years and now Iām speaking and Iām thinking, wow, I canāt touch that. So what can you share about imposter syndrome? Because I know Iāve dealt with it and Iām sure you have too.
Kelly Swanson (22:41)
Yeah, yeah, me neither.
I deal with it all the time. Imposter comparing, though they have that, oh I must need to be that, or what I think the world. I spend a lot of time thinking about who my audience needs me to be or wants me to be or buyer wants me to be and Iām finally, God, finally getting to a place where Iām like no, Iām just gonna be who Iām supposed to be and go find the people who are gonna want that.
So that was, that was taking me 20 years to get there. So hey, good luck to you. But we still need to get booked. We still need to get, we need to play the game enough to where they were not too, I have to hide some of my weird, I canāt lead with it because weāve got to be what theyāre looking for. But I suffer from imposter syndrome all the time. And then when I get to the job wondering, was I good enough? Did I do enough? Oh, person over there. Cause we got all these evaluations coming at us. I finally stopped reading them because now Iām like, look, Iāve been doing this 20 years.
Thereās gonna be everything all over the place. Iāll go to my client. You asked me to be funny, motivate the group, have a message relevant to them about story, give them a couple of good tips, check, check, check, hope it was what youāre looking for, get my check, call it a day. And yet many of us as speakers, we go away, we beat ourselves up, we act like weāre flipping astronauts or we were hired to change the world. We werenāt. We were hired to talk between two o āclock and 2 .15.
and theyāre gonna forget about most of us by dinner anyway. So that helps me feel better about that imposter syndrome. And I also look at it like music, often. The world of music, thereās no way youāre gonna ever pick a favorite, a best, a right way, a wrong way. You are never going to do that.
And you and I will never, if we tried to name the best band, we wonāt agree. And it doesnāt mean youāre right or wrong, it just means youāll never get there. So thatās how I see us as speaking. Weāre artists, weāre like musicians. Youāve created the style of music you wanna play. Iāve created the style, I might have narrowed my lane down, but we play the music. Somebody in thereās not gonna like that song. Thatās fine. Thatās why we need the next one to come along. And as long as weāreā¦
Dave Bricker (25:01)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Swanson (25:08)
correctly selling to the client, delivering on what they asked for and what we told them we would do. You know, we just, we have to appreciate the music that weāre playing and walk away. And in music, people do that. They, I mean, maybe not all, Iām sure thereās egos, but they just play their song and they walk away and, you know, go on to the next one. So I know itās easier said than done. And also, well, this doesnāt have to do with imposter syndrome, butā¦
We also worry a lot about how we look doing it. Maybe women more than men, no, men worry about this too. And when Iām feeling that way, like, oh great, you know, I donāt look the part, my clothes are not as nice, that one looks better doing it, I go, wait a minute, when you go serve at the soup kitchen, you donāt care about what youāre wearing. It doesnāt matter. Youāre there to serve. So when I try to flip that, and go, no Kelly, youāre here to serve. It doesnāt matter what youāre wearing. I mean, of course it does in a way, but just serve these people. And for anybody who suffers with stuff like that, Iām gonna tell you right now, it turned out to be my secret weapon. Turned out that being funny and reminding them of their crazy aunt or not looking the part would end up giving thousands of people permission and confidence that they could do it too. So yeah, I just wanted to say that too. I probably spent a little longer on that than you would want me to.
Dave Bricker (26:37)
So itās important because itās a big obstacle for a lot of people, not just in the speaking world. And the fact of the matter is, I think itās easy for them to get an industry insider to come and speak for free. Thatās just professional courtesy, like you or I might go do an NSA chapter. Thatās just giving back to the community. Theyāre looking for outside perspectives. And atā¦
Kelly Swanson (27:02)
Yes, and we donāt all have to be the $20 ,000 speaker. We often get around our peers and some people will make you feel less than or itās the story weāre writing because weāre insecure and we need to, I believe, we need to acceptā¦
I always say, I donāt care what your fee is, donāt wear it like a label. Youāre a CEO of your business. What do you need to do? How do you need to position yourself? You could position yourself at a lower fee and make three times as much money as somebody that positioned themself differently. So a lot of our imposter syndrome comes from the advice that we get from our peers or that weāre susceptible to. And Iām gonna say this too, Dave.
The most critical advice that Iāve gotten over the years, if youāre going to measure it, has come from other speakers, not my audience. So sometimes I have to step back and go, whoa, wait a minute. What does my audience think about this? What do my clients think about this? Everybodyās going to have an opinion, and most of us mean well.
But even what you hear me say today, itās just my opinion filtered through the way that I was able to find a way to turn this into a business. Doesnāt mean itās gonna be right for you. Somebodyās gonna come along, do it completely different, and thatās okay. And they may make more money, or they may look better doing it, or they may figure out how to get a $20 ,000 speech. Then good for them. I wish them all the best. You know, some of us are gonna play our music in Coliseums. Some of us are gonna play our music in a, you know, bar mitzvah in the corner and itās all good.
Dave Bricker (28:44)
And hey, I play in the living room and Iām happy with it. You know, we both know Dr. Margarita Gurri from NSA and she has a quote that I wish I had come up with myself. She says, when all else fails, just pretend to be yourself.
Kelly Swanson (28:48)
Right. Now.
Yeah. Well, and thatās so, so true and I love Margarita and it is so true because when I start thinking, I mean, Iām talking about, you and I are talking about a topic that everybody and their brother has decided in the past year theyāre going to teach story. Okay. And youāre probably going, wait, we were talking about it before it was cool, but it doesnāt matter because even when the imposter syndrome sets in,
Dave Bricker (29:18)
Heheheheh
Kelly Swanson (29:24)
And Iām like, oh gosh, my content, their contentās better. Theyāre gonna do story better. Theyāve got a training company. I come back to. But nobody can take your stories. Nobody can take your personality. Nobody can replicate, duplicate. Thatās why I donāt worry if my contentās out there, because nobody, that is what each of us has that is completely unique.
And I mean, maybe somebody could try to take our story, but you know what I mean, Dave, the story piece of your presentation is nobody can touch it.
Dave Bricker (29:58)
Get it. I get it. And I mean, thatās kind of thatās part of the NSA value means in other industries, somebody would say, Dave, why are you having Kelly Swanson on your podcast? Sheās your big competitor. Like, she does everything completely different than I do. Thatās like, thatās nothing to do with comp. I mean,
Kelly Swanson (30:18)
We are, the way I look at it is, I just had a big aha the other day where people are like, donāt sell story, nobody knows they want that. And Iām like, youāre kidding, storyās the solution. So you and I are also doing our part in getting awareness out there to where one day hopefully we are a topic in a drop -down box. I mean, bureaus donāt even have a topic for story. Itās pushes into these other things. So no, there is plenty of business to go around.
I truly believe that. And thereās enough for, itās like customer service. I mean, come on. One year you might want to get Kelly come talk about it. The other year you might want to get Dave come talk about it. I mean, so what? Thereās no big deal. One thing too, it might not be related, but itās a good story, a little one, is that I have a speaker friend who had a job of multiple bookings. And then she referred me for the job.
Dave Bricker (31:01)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Swanson (31:16)
So to be extra prepared, she invited me to go watch her speak at one of them. And we took notes and she sat down and said, okay, hereās what they want. And hereās what theyāre like in this, because it was in different cities. And hereās this and hereās this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, great. So I did what many of us tend to do. Oh, I must need to do this. I get on the client call and I tell the client, oh, donāt worry. I watched the speaker from this year. Sheās filled me in, saves you some time, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were kind of mad. They were like, āWe didnāt hire you to go be her and do what she does that way. We want you to do what you do.ā In fact, and see, one of the pieces of advice, for example, was, oh, they want lots of content. This groupās going, oh no, weāre doing the theme around who hijacked my fairy tale and weāre all gonna wear fairy tale characters and we want laughter and we want, they wanted none of, and thatās where it really settled in. I was like, oh.
Dave Bricker (31:51)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Swanson (32:16)
They want her to do what she has positioned herself and packaged herself, the product sheās created, and then they went the next year and they bought a different product.
Dave Bricker (32:24)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And thatās all about listen to the client. I always get on the phone and I ask them, what outcomes are you looking for? What are you struggling with that I can help with instead of what would you like me to speak about? Completely different because thatās where the story is rather than where the topic. Thatās the difference between being a lecturer and a storyteller. So.
Kelly Swanson (32:53)
And we have a hard time, Dave, as speakers, because we have two outcomes theyāre looking for. We have number one outcome. We want an experience. We want them not to be bored. Thereās the kind of what the meeting planner wants you to be and have. And you also have what that person in the audience is looking for and wants as a return on investment. And sometimes you also have their boss.
So youāve got three, sometimes I feel like I have three different buyers that I have to appeal to in that scenario.
Dave Bricker (33:32)
and the market is upside down. And what I mean by that is think about it. Okay, they pay more money for a keynote than they do for a workshop. But when it comes to actually getting actionable outcomes, that workshopās worth five times more than the keynote. But.
Kelly Swanson (33:49)
Right. But they donāt, same thing with training. Once youāre coming out of a training budget and my husband used to work as a trainer and heās like, Iād work all day and still not make what you go charge for an hour. Now, the difference is the event and the expectation there, itās not, and thatās what makes our job hard because itās not always a, but these people are going to walk out here and be, it isnāt.
Youāre right, it is upside down because what meant more to them in that hour was that they had a keynote thatās unforgettable so people will come to the conference next year. That meeting plannerās objective was not to make sure that audience became better storytellers. Right, unless itās the corporate, I mean, it really comes down to the easiest way is when that client calls.
Dave Bricker (34:33)
Right. A keynote is entertainment
Kelly Swanson (34:45)
And itās just like you said: What are you looking for? What made you pick me? You know, and of course getting them to do most of the talking, which is something I struggle with. You know, and checking the boxes. We want somebody, see what I need to learn to do is listen, mirror, and close the deal. I tend to talk and letās do this and then, you know, and muddy the waters when itās, we want somebody funny, we want somebody to motivate, talk about parachute, yep, can do that, boom, boom, boom. Get it signed and then do the talking after.
Dave Bricker (35:14)
Yep, I like that. Letās go back to the music theme for just a moment, because you draw this wonderful analogy between music and storytelling that, hey, I really wish Iād thought of it first, but you got it.
Kelly Swanson (35:24)
Thank you.
Well, I donāt know exactly what it is. What do you mean? That each one is like a note?
Dave Bricker (35:32)
Well, yeah, I heard you speak about that recently and I thought what a great metaphor thatās really worth ā¦
Kelly Swanson (35:36)
Awesome!
Oh, yes, I know what youāre talking about because there is, there are a lot of overlaps between music and story. I see the story as notes in music, but I know what youāre talking about because it does, when I stand up on the stage to teach story, the first thing that I try to tell them is that because Iām a musician and played the piano, I see story as an instrument.
Story is an instrument and that is what it is for us as speakers. No matter what youāre playing or how youāre using it, itās an instrument that can take people on these different journeys and tempo and variety and laughter and feeling and content and whatever. And too many people come to me and they want to learn to play the piano in one lesson. And Iām like, Iā¦
thatās not how this works. Youāve got to first understand where the keys are, how you play them, where the notes are. You learn the basics, you learn the chords. When you learn to play the piano, you have to go do these basic things first and eventually youāll start to play the songs other people wrote, then youāll start to add to it, and youāll start to create your own music and become, and weāre all going to be different styles musicians and weāre gonna beat some are gonna be better at that instrument than others thatās just the way it is but you I am NOT going to give you a piano lesson I think thatās what you were talking about is weāll do lessons later letās first understand how the piano how this tool works is that what my analogy
Dave Bricker (37:20)
Because we, I think so, yes, because, and I know we both get that call, someone says, Iāve got a big presentation to do and Iām terrified. And you ask them, whenās the presentation? They say tomorrow. Itās like, okay, how virtuosic do you think youāre gonna get?
Kelly Swanson (37:35)
Well, and some people just want you to hand them a piece of music. And we do that sometimes. Some people say, look, Iām never going to beā¦ Letās face it, Dave. Not everybody is going to be able to do this. Not everybody can write it. Iām sure you, just as I do, end up writing it for people a lot of times or writing it with them. And there is no shame in that. I mean, I would much ratherā¦ I farm out whatever somebody else can do better than me.
And like chat GPT but but and some people just want that finished story and then they want to take it and theyāre good with scripts and they can take it and run with it but as speakers if My goal is to be a good musician and to use this instrument to do all these different things because if you get somebody write a story great youāve got one you and I have hundreds of stories we use in our speeches we you know that I the use for them and weāre talking speeches. Many speakers arenāt even thinking about, well, how are you telling stories in social media? Which Iām even weak at. How are you using them in your sales calls? How are you telling them in your demo video? How are you using them in your meetings with your teams? There are stories that we need to be using in our business as well. Anyway, that weāre not doing as speakers. Thatās my two cents on that.
Dave Bricker (38:57)
Love it. So youāre tuned into Speakipedia Media for aspiring and professional speakers and thought leaders who want to make more money by changing hearts, minds, and fortunes. My guest today is master storyteller Kelly Swanson. So we both hear from people all the time who say, Iām not creative or Iām not funny.
I prefer to think those are limiting beliefs rather than tragic realities, but what guidance do you offer to those who want to be effective speakers and storytellers, but they canāt find the spark?
Kelly Swanson (39:36)
Well, first of all, donāt try to be funny if youāre not. Donāt try to be something youāre not. Just try to be fun. Figure out how to bring the fun out. And you could still accomplish the same purpose and save yourself a lot of time and energy. When you talk about being creative, Iām going to spin it in this direction. A lot of people say, is this the best story? Is this the best story? What storyās better? Whatās the best story?
And Iām like, well, thatās crazy. And weāre having a contest, and I promise you itās going to come down to personal opinion at the end of the day, because thereās no such thing as the best. But donāt ask yourself that question for your speeches. Donāt grade yourself on whoās got the best story. Thatās not what itās about. Itās about having the right story. You could have a simple story, but itās about, it is about having a story that illustrates the point that you need to make. Weāre using stories as a tool.
Yes, some of them are going to be sexier. Some of them are going to be funnier. Some of them are going to be bigger because bigger things happen to you. Or itās my chub rub girl with the sequined thighs. Or itās somebody had a wreck. But you donāt have to have these glamorous, you donāt have to have crashed on a mountain or won a medal or crashed and had to eat all your friends to have an interesting story. I tell stories about ordinary life, about being a mom.
Dave Bricker (40:53)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Swanson (41:02)
Having a kid. I mean, youāve seen it when youāve watched speakers. Theyāre the smallest, most ordinary moments can sometimes be the most universal. My most popular stuff is just talking about my husband. People love that because everybody can relate to having a relationship. So I think sometimes we see big stories or people who, or this, I donāt even like the idea of a signature story. Now, if youāre Alison Massari, yeah, youāve got a signature story. You are almost burned alive and the whole speech is about that story. If youāve got a story like that, leverage it. Wonderful. Use that. But most of us, weāre just cobbling together little stories about our life and how they illustrate this truth we want to have. I also believe, as Iām sure you do too, Dave, many ordinary stories can be made much more dramatic. They can be told in interesting ways. They can have jokes inserted in them. They can have a simple prop or something that that levels it up. I call them bells and whistles. You can find the tiniest little bells and whistles, a hint of music, a sound that you pipe in through your PowerPoint. These little things that you can do that level up the experience without having to go find, you know, some, you know, crazy big story. Thatās my two cents on that.
Dave Bricker (42:23)
Yeah, well, I think that size doesnāt matter message is an important one because people think, oh, I have to have run a marathon or climb Mount Everest. And do you know that over 4 ,000 people have climbed Mount Everest? I donāt want to diminish it. Youāre not going to catch me up there as adventurous as I tend to be. But I got a friend actually climbing Everest right now, but heās not going to be the first. And you donāt have to walk on the moon. And I think aboutā¦
Kelly Swanson (42:27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Itās over.
Yeah.
Dave Bricker (42:52)
God, take four cubicles in any company and the messages going over the walls and the jokes and the knocking, the codes and theā¦ I mean, God, people have told stories of sitting in a prison camp for years trying to stay connected to other people. So stories are everywhere. Anotherā¦
Kelly Swanson (43:15)
I also think, wait, can I say one thing add to that? Theyāre also evergreen. A lot of times Iāll hear people say, you canāt talk about COVID; itās over. Iām like, well, no, thatās not fair. This is something that happened to the entire globe that every person on the planet understands and has context to. If something really big happened to me during COVID, Iām not allowed to talk about it. Now, sure, I wonāt have a title thatās got the word pandemic in it, but I hear a lot of people worried that because this happened to them 30 years ago, now I get it if youāre still acting like your worldās over because it happened, but Iāve got a story in my theater show about something that happened to me in college.
That was a long time ago. I wonāt count the decades that itās been. Iām not telling you that. Iām telling you that because it best illustrates what Iām talking about. Here was a moment where somebody else got to write my story and I let them. Thatās how Iām going to grade this. So be ā¦ looser on yourselves in that regard. People who were thinking they donāt have a right to tell that story anymore because itās dated. You might need to freshen it up if these young people donāt even understand what youāre talking about. They donāt remember COVID. Well, then you might have to add a few more details.
Dave Bricker (44:28)
and well.
Well, get that. And also look, youāve got the Black Plague, youāve got smallpox, youāve got the Spanish flu, youāve got any number of other pathogens that have had huge impacts on society. So maybe the latest chapter in that story is over for now, but maybe there are some lessons to be had from talking about just using COVID as an example. Another one is I always tell people, be a journeyist, not a journalist, because the story doesnāt have to be 100 % true. I gave a keynote recently, which was based on true stories, but I had a lesson to teach and I absolutely fabricated a story. Now, no oneās accusing J .K. Rowling of being a liar when she writes the Harry Potter books, right? I mean, be a journeyist, not a journalist.
Kelly Swanson (45:28)
Right, I agree and Iām not paid to tell the truth, Iām paid to be entertaining and however, the flip side of that, unfortunately, we might have people who donāt understand where itās not okay to do that. Itās, itās, itās, Iām not, you and I, weāre not going to make up a story about having had cancer if we didnāt.
Weāre not going to write a story about being in the military if we didnāt serve in the military. So, but if it was a Tuesday and we said Thursday, or if we smushed two or three stories together to make this point, or if we change our clientās name because itās confidential and we have to use somebody elseās name, I can sleep at night. Now, Iāve also had people say, as you probably have today, I donāt want to change any bit of the story. This is how it happened. This is the truth. And Iāll say one of two things.
Dave Bricker (46:15)
Mm -hmm.
Kelly Swanson (46:19)
Then either donāt tell it because itās not interesting. Or two, give me an inner narrative, a running commentary. If youāre not gonna change any of this, at least step out of it, at least have your own funnyisms, your own thoughts, your own take on it. Thatās how you can add elements to it to power it up without changing exactly what happened. And when you said donāt be journalists, I also thought you might mean I donāt need everything that you put in your journalāa short condensed tightened path to get there. So many people and then this happened and then I got this and then I went, no. But anytime you can take a leap and get me to the front of that hotel room if I didnāt have to go through the parking lot, then do so. Thatās one area is letās try to condense it. You said before that you see your, something about your process for your speeches. I see mine in five minute squares and blocks that have a heading and a purpose and thatās just the way I see it and itās really easy for me. And so these stories, people always say, how long should a story be? Iām like, I donāt know as long as it needs to be. But if you make it five minutes or less, I think youāre gonna be safe because even if they hate it, itās over in five minutes. And so yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Dave Bricker (47:38)
Yeah, and thatās what that outline does for me. So Kelly, I could talk with you about storytelling for hours and hours, and as much as I would love to, Iām not gonna do that, but you offer some fabulous coaching and training programs. Youāve got your Story Impact Academy. Can you talk about some of those things you offer and tell our listeners and viewers where they can discover more about Kelly Swanson?
Kelly Swanson (48:04)
Sure. What I found, Dave, is that sure, people can come get coaching and, you know, hereās an hour, but that hour starts ticking. Iām sure as you know. And people are like, wait, but I got this story and I got that story and I got this story and I got that story. So I found that I can serve people better by just opening my office in small moments each month. And then people can come into my office, say, hey, Iām working on this little piece right here.
What do I do with it? And you know Dave, I can, well everybody listening now knows I can do a lot in five minutes. So thatās why I created Story Impact Academy. It has a lot of other perks in it, of course, the information, blah, blah, blah. But the main thing is I just opened my office and people come to, itās like having me on retainer. I love that. But the other thing I want to tell you too is Iāve got some free resources for your listeners to go to storyimpactnetwork .com, Story Impact Network and over to the side, thatās my free community, you can find resources so you can get some more notes, but you can also find something called story studio registrations and thatās where we have chats like this but a lot more informal and I say hey what are you working on? I give them themes and itās kind of a way to kick my tires so to speak, but go check that out. I think umā¦
Many people are finding that useful to just kind of drop in and continue the conversation. So thanks for asking. Yeah, I would love for people to stay in touch.
Dave Bricker (49:34)
Super. So Kelly Swanson, thank you so much for being my guest today. Itās been a joy.
Kelly Swanson (49:41)
Same, same. Youāre doing good work out there in the world, Bricker. Youāre one of my favorite storytellers and anybody listening already knows what value you bring. But rock on, and Iām so glad you have, you created Speakipedia and, you know, wish Iād thought of that. And a podcast bringing such wisdom to the world. It was a pleasure being included.
Dave Bricker (50:02)
Thank you. So Iām Dave Bricker, inviting you to explore the worldās most comprehensive resource for speakers and storytellers at speakipedia .com. If youāre watching this on social media video, please love, subscribe, and share your comments. If youāre listening to the podcast, keep your hands on the wheel, stay safe, and Iāll see you on the next episode of Speakipedia Media.
